Forged Alliance

I wasn't there on Thursday so I'm not just trying to get free DKP but...... Those that were ready for the 25man raid on Thursday should get a few points for being online and ready to rock. Also, if on Tuesday  we have 30 people those extra 5 should also get some sort of DKP for being on "stand-by" or whatever.

You will get the on time bonus (3) for being there and available, as will extra folks.  I know it doesn't seem like a lot, but if the bonus amounts are too large, then the zero sum part of it sort of degrades.

So, I was going to crit this thread with wall of text for over 9000 about Gruul's and possibly Mag's DKP being on a separate dkp table  that I could maintain or the Gruul's and possibly Mag's dkp loot rules could be different since it seems like people are hesitant to get upgrades from tier 4 content now when there is tier 5 content lurking in the mist ready to be had but if they can use the tier 4 upgrade then their tier 5 progression shouldn't be penalized since it is basically upgrading the raid as a whole but I was going to do this in much more words and with an example of another different situation with how I essentially have to spend points on an eventual three tier 4 pieces to maintain an awesome 2 piece set bonus which basically will become very expensive dkp-wise in order to properly upgrade to tier 5, that is, presupposing that I am being charged dkp for the shoulders from tonight which I cannot use until I actually get tier 5 gloves since the shoulders are an immediate downgrade from bladed shoulderpads of the merciless while the other folks on the class table who were present already have tier 4 or better. I guess I'm just feeling like my decision to pass on all tier 4 gruul's loot in the past (which was basically almost every gruul's for a long while) is coming back to bite me in the behind, and even though I'd do it again since it was all major upgrades for other people and because at the time I totally didn't need it and I anticipated getting it later when we would progress to tier 5 content when I actually did need it and other people didn't need it because they already have it (which is happening it now, I appear to have planned it perfectly EXCEPT for the fact that gruul's is now on dkp), it's still annoying because I'm stuck sitting.  On my behind.  And bitten behinds don't like sitting.  If you'd like to see the full post I can post it but it's not very pretty but it is fairly detailed  but very long but may be odd since I'm tired. Also, rolling for stuff when rolls won't necessarily count is confusing.  Could we just say in raid if we want the piece or not and then look at the dkp table to see who is the highest?  If there is a tie, then a roll-off commences.  Therefore less unnecessary number spam and yes the original thread i wrote was much longer than this zzzz -Riggins

I agree -- last night pointed out some painful problems with our DKP system.  I think you're right about the points for Gruul -- maybe everything in there is 1/3 and we dont give a 1/3 roll in SSC yet?   Or maybe we rework just the Tier things (I know the DST hasn't dropped yet and that's worth full points)?  Something has to change ...  There are things that are obvious upgrades to people that they aren't taking in order to hoard DKP, there are things that are marginal upgrades that people aren't wanting because they want to save DKP for other things, there are things like your example where it's a 'meh' upgrade until you get 4 pieces ... Additionally, saying "ROLL <item>" really invites a chaotic mess -- I think it should be "Whisper me if you want <item> for 50DKP", and the loot distributer gives it to the person with the most current DKP or tells certain people to roll off. This our first stab at this ... we'll figure out something that is fair for everyone.  We've spent a while intellectualizing this, now that it's in practice -- there are some obvious things to work through.

I agree with both Chuunks and Riggins.  I think Gruul's should have some form of separate dkp or loot council.  Here's a small example, Gruul's shield drops, but since the warriors all have it, none of the holy paladin's want to take it for 1/3 dkp because they want something from SSC for their main spec.  However, as we progress, it would only help the guild if we had a back up for brav to spec prot for certain nights, when he isn't able to make it and be as geared as possible to tank, especially for Morogrim.  Since it would be very difficult to do him without a pal tank.  Also, I didn't take T4 legs cause I didn't want to spend dkp for something that I would prob use 10% of the time, when I'm really eyeing the TT from Leo.  Not to say I won't take the staff it drops again, but I'm hording my dkp for the item I most want.  Gruul's is just a different situation because it's been on farm for such a long time, and most of the stuff in there is a sidegrade or slight upgrade at best to most of the raiders.  I think something should be done differently for the serious upgrade stuff in Gruul's (DST for example) but the T4 stuff and that helm amelya got, doesn't seem like it should cost too much.  Amelya's prob waiting for a free T4 helm from prince, instead of paying 69 dkp on a gruul's hat she will upgrade with free T4.  I've run into this situation before when I use to use dkp.  People would hoard it for what they need or fear being in the negative because a new raider with 0 dkp beats them out of a solid upgrade becuase they've been taking minor upgrades to better the guild.  The other thing about putting dkp on gruul's is it incents the raiders who don't need anything to go to Gruul's just to stack up points, but forces newer or lesser geared people to sit, who can really use the drops for suitable upgrades and would allow them to be a viable back up in the future when raid spots are open.  This doesn't happen now, but it's something that is a derivative of DKP for stuff on easy farm status (I've seen this happen far too often with DKP).    Overall, DKP is not a bad system.  Like everything it has it's pros and cons.  However, implementing it on something that has been on farm status makes it a bit more challenging.  Not saying anything should changing, just offering my unsolicited 2 cents.

Beiner wroteThe other thing about putting dkp on gruul's is it incents the raiders who don't need anything to go to Gruul's just to stack up points, but forces newer or lesser geared people to sit, who can really use the drops for suitable upgrades and would allow them to be a viable back up in the future when raid spots are open.

I think this is a really good point. I get the feeling this is why it was hard to find someone willing to sit out last night for others, when people used to always sit out if someone else needed gear. It basically comes down to, if i sit out for a priest for Gruul's since I don't need anything there, i put myself behind all the priests that do go. Giving the points to people that sit out for others would help that, but goes against a zero-sum system.

First things first. I went to ZA and Gruul's for my first time yesterday. I also went to SSC twice, a place I never thought I'd go. Thank you very much, it was a ton of fun. Now on to business.  I'm a fan of DKP. I used to watch MQ Raids that used loot council, and if you weren't in in there little circle of friends you got screwed all the time while they got the loot. That said however, I don't think our guild is anything like MQ. The players are more mature, and the veteran members are happy to include and help the new folks. /rant on So once again, I WAS a fan of DKP. Loot council possibly could have saved me from myself... I was so eager to get rid of crafted (ugly) sets that I didn't look hard enough at the items. The gear I got is a total sidegrade at best.. And only after I get 4 pieces of t4 for the 4piece set bonus. Nobody uses the 2piece bonus   If I drop tailoring (once I have enough items to replace my PMC) and pickup Jewelcrafting, I can probably gem the T4 shoulders to be marginally better then PMC shoulders. The legs I thought were better straight up.. Come to find out, I have Silver Spellthread, not Golden on my Whitemend legs. /rant off I also agree with Beiner, and Tsuni. The people that sit out need to get as many points as those that go. They are making themselves available for the raid. They are stepping out because they don't need anything from Gruuls and there are people that do. That's helping the raid. Now if you sitout then you also need to STAY online and available in case of disconnects. You are on Standby. Ok maybe they dont get the exact same as the people on the raid. But they do need to get more then just the 3 for showing up on time. If you come to the raid, but aren't needed and instead are on standby then you could get like1/2 of the points that the people in the raid do. So 3 for showing up, 3.5 for each boss, another .5 if the raid downs a new boss and so on and so forth. Whatever, I don't know why I want to try helping. I have no expierence with this stuff... If you want to know a good BG Premade strat.. Or what makes a good combo/team in arena then hit me up.  

Learning to like DKP less and less ... there are so many flaws with every system. We tried this zero-point system with the thoughts and guidance that it would be fairest to people and not have a barrier to entry -- but I agree with everyone that if you make yourself available for a raid either by being logged on and alt with your main by the instance so we dont have to wait if we need you (kudo's to Materia!) -- or by sitting out so someone less geared can come in, should get points as well - because it's helping the raid.   Zero point system doesnt work for this because values are divided by the raid numbers to determine what was earned ... What I saw working with some effect was a straight bid system .. points were granted, minimum price for the purple was given -- and people bid.  Obviously this creates long term problems with people who make it to ever raid having 1000 points vs. anyone part time having 100.  But these are thingswe could work with too -- an item could have a max price -- and people could keep bids to whispers, when the max price is set - or the max bid is reached, anyone who bid that amount can have the /roll to arbitrate fairness.  In this fashion -- prices are determined to be market value.  As badge loot releases, as we break into further content -- prices will automatically adjust to the raid needs. IMPORTANT NOTE:   we're still working on this - it's only been a couple weeks and we just stretched our legs in this.  It's not too late to fix, in fact -- it's important to fix now before we get some real loot drama. IMPORTANT NOTE #2 :  I know all this comes off a little weird from me since I can get defaulted tanking gear .. but trust me that my intentions are to be as fair as possible so we can progress faster.  I want people to take marginal upgrades -- it helps the raid.  I dont want them to be penalized for it or forced to ..

I just think most of the issues last night seemed to come from DKP in Gruul's. T4 is honestly a little out of date. Even some Kara items are better/comparable. Asking someone to drop their SSC dkp on something they could get in Kara is going to end up with people passing on upgrades. There's only a few items in Gruul/Mag that are still really nice even today, such as DST. Also early SSC gear wasn't even that great back when it was new, so yeah some people are going to pass on marginal upgrades/sidesgrades. Heck back in the days of MC/BWL, we'd kill bosses for the first time and shard something that night cause not all loot is itemized well. (Vendorstrike, lol) So i wouldn't worry too much about some of the stuff being passed on last night. People just aren't going to want to use their T5 dkp on mediocre T4 loot, and if that means a DE that's fine. It's better that they getting a really nice upgrade later than blow their dkp to get +9 stam just so we dont end up with a void crystal. Say Nagashi wasted his dkp on that item off lurker. Next week a hunter that's only gone one other time now has more DKP than Nagashi. He gets the T5 gloves, which would have been a real upgrade for Nagashi who is always there. I was surprised that people felt the need to have all the items be taken. If its crappy loot, its crappy loot. Just cause someone would throw it in their bags for just in case situations if there wasn't dkp, doesn't mean there's a problem with using a dkp system.

I don't personally think it's that bad of a thing if people want to pass on SSC epics that aren't that good to get ones that are amazing. Now if someone is passing on stuff they they can legitamately use cause they hoping to bomb all their DKP on a weapon off Vasji in two months. Then that person might need some talking to/be replaced on runs. But even back when we did flat dkp in my pre-BC raiding guild, that didn't really happen. Most people will take something that is actually good.

I like dkp cause its a nice progression reward for always being around, and keeps people encouraged on coming. I've personally heard a lot of negative things about loot counsel discouraging those that don't feel like they are in the 'inner circle' of the guild, weither it is true or not. Then the officers are going to always be worried about how it's going to be perceived by others if they decide to give 'so and so' loot over 'that guy'. Or not realizing they are giving locks all their T5 pieces first, etc. Seems like there's just too many mind games involved. You can't argue that Legolawls has more DKP then IHateHeals. Also if you don't have dkp, then you'll have the opposite issue of people rolling on the smalles upgrade 'cause it's better' over people that could really use it. Or someone that only comes once a month getting T5 over someone that on and ready every day. It just might be too late in the raiding game to throw it on Gruul's, which again it seemed like most of the problems last night came from Gruul's loot.

I'm glad we're having these discussions now and not 3 months from now when a portion of the guild gquits because [Giant Blade of Ismashyourface] went to Scrubby McNoobsalot and not Joe Alwaysready. (Yes, this really did happen in a previous guild of mine, names were changed to protect the innocent) Anyway couple clear things:      1) no more pre-dkp-tie rolling. "Who wants this [Super Heally Mace of Doom] for 123DKP?" and have them say it in raid or whisper, whatever. 2) You CAN give people who are on "stand by" DKP. (people who were asked to sit out, people who subbed out for someone or people who just didn't get invited and are waiting to get in). IMO they should get the full amount. Take the dkp of the item, divide it by 25, hand out dkp to everyone in the raid, and give that same numbe to everyone on "stand bye". "BUT DAAAGGHHHIIII, those noobs just sat around in Shat picking their noses while we did all the hard work!!!" You should be rewarded for take one for the team, not penalized. So in the cases listed above full dkp should be given. This does not include people who show up late, leave early or are doing something during the raid they cannot leave at moment's notice, like another instance. If you're sitting out and BGing on an alt and /afk when you're asked to come in, that's fine IMO. I have no idea what to do about Gruuls, i just know something needs to be done and the people above me have made good points about it. I think I had more points, but i'm kind of drained.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to complain or make any loot drama.  However, I will say, I'm going to raise a hell of a shitfit if someone gets a Giant Blade of Ismashyourface before I do, especially if it's a dagger (cause I can't use swords), cause I wanna look cool with a wpn that has a cool name.

Haha, i think this whole discussion is trying to avoid loot drama as much as possible. We JUST started this new system and are trying to iron out all the kinks is all.

Another idea, throw out the zero sum part...  Instead of going negative, just reduce people back to zero. Then the members that have been here a long time don't have to worry about new people coming in and getting their phat loots. Loot still goes priority to the person with the highest DKP that wants the item.  OR OR, new idea.... Start new people at -50 DKP (Who aggro'd the whelps!).  Keep everything else like it is... Just tell the new people, "Hey man, you gotta put in your time."  I see nothing wrong with starting people at negative.. It wouldn't have kept me from joining. And heck, if it doesn't keep someone from joining the guild then we probably didnt want them anyways.

Tsuni and I were talking about this last night and I have an idea that might work better for our guild. What we do is change from zero-sum to flat-sum dkp with blind bid on items. How this will work is that we'll just take the dkp numbers we have now and then assign new minimum values to items and make dkp based on boss kills. (Say SSC bosses are 4dkp per kill and Gruul's bosses are 2dkp, or not include Gruul's at all) This will make it much easier to give bonus points for on-time and guild first kills and stuff like that. Any new person starts at 0 dkp. How the loot system works is that when an Item drops it has a minimum dkp value. Then anyone who wants the item whispers the master looter with how much dkp they would like to bid. The person with the highest bid gets it. However the winning bidder pays the amount of the bidder below him + 1. If there is a tie in the bids then there is a /roll and the winner gets the item for the amount they bid. If no one bids, then the item gets sharded. Scenario 1: We kill Leo. Tsuami Talisman drops. Dudepal [raid] [Tsunami Talisman] - 30 DKP minimum bid whisper me now. Nagashi whispers 55 dkp, Riggins whispers 150 dkp, Beiner whispers 85 dkp, Daghi whispers 100 dp + hot cyborz. *Riggins recieves [Tsunami Talisman]* Riggins is docked 101 dkp for the item. Scenario 2: Amazing tanking shield drops. Dudepal [raid] [Fortress Shield of Imnotdying] - 20 DKP minimum bid whipser me now. Chuunks whipsers 200 dkp. *Chuunks recieves [Fortress Shield of Imnotdying]* chuunks is docked 21 dkp. Scenario 3: T5 gloves drop Dudepal [raid] Warrior, Druid, Priest t5 gloves - min 30 dkp whipser me now. Thandran whispers 60 dkp Myradin whispers 60 dkp. Beiner whispers 50 dkp. Dudepal [raid] Thandran and Myradin roll off Thandran rolls 57 Myradin rolls 24.*Thandran recieves t5 gloves* Thandran is docked 60 dkp for the item. Pros: Allows people to set the values of the items. Someone isn't going to bid loads of dkp for an item that they'll only use for offspec. Things are less likely to get sharded if we set reasonable minimum dkp values. There's bound to be someone who wants an item for the min. does not reward hording dkp. If someone really wants an item and bids all their dkp the first time it drops, they maybe get it forf 281 dkp, however if they had waited until the 2nd or 3rd time it dropped they'll likely have gotten it for a fraction of that amount. I think this system would work well for us, i had more, but i got back from lunch and now i've forgotten.