Group 2 (proposed) plan of attack!

Blave · Post by **Blave** » August 20th, 2007, 12:01 pm

Okay, we have been having a huge amount of problems with group 2. Simply put, I believe we are not ready. We need better gear, more practice with our characters, and more comment. Currently we can not drop any bosses without outside help (IE alts from group 1 or PUGs). So here is what I propose ...

1) We disband group 2 for the next 2-3 weeks
2) Setup Thursday and Sunday as guild 5 man instance nights. We should be able to get 2 different groups going if everyone in group 2 just pretends we are doing Kara and shows up ready and committed to help their brother in arms.
3) After 2-3 weeks we rebuild group 2. This can be does based on classes, items, and most importantly comment. If there are 3 rogues that want to go, and 2 can commit to Thursday and Sunday, than the third rogue is put on an alt list and rotated in as needed. (We need to setup a core group of regulars, at least 7-8 people)
4) Implement a simplified point system. Now I know some people have strong feeling about this, but simply put a point system will "fairly distribute loot based on participation and contribution" ... http://www.wowwiki.com/Dragon_Kill_Points Just like the BGs and the Arena established by Blizzard, you show up, you earn points, and points get you items. Here is a example of other guilds using DKP http://www.webdkp.com/
and here is an example of a guild on our server http://www.webdkp.com/dkp.php?view=loot ... &tableid=1

Thoughts?

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » August 20th, 2007, 1:28 pm

I can imagine how frustrating it must be to wipe repeatedly on a boss, especially one that has been killed before. Moroes can be an extremely difficult fight if you only have one priest. It's a lot of adds running around ... These fights aren't "do X Y Z -- collect loot" -- you need to know an encounter well enough to be able to handle it as "X J Q". Now that said, every wipe should have some element of a learning experience with it .. otherwise you're leaving it up to "better luck" the next attempt, which is no good/fun. 1) I'm not sure disbanding is fair to the remainder of people in the group, since there are people who have put in the time to be prepared and only so many raid spots in group 1 to go around. 2) Does this mean people are not doing 5-man instances for gear already? I think that should be happening Monday->Sunday. 3) I agree with a core group -- but I think the focus should be more on having specifically 1 tank, 1 offtank and 3 healers - that's the meat of the group. DPS is the spicy sauce to add to the dinner. 4) My personal opinion is that DKP is overkill for 10-man instances, but definately something we should adopt for Gruul ++ .. Those sites look good. What I would suggest - if disbanding is the option selected - is disband until you definately have the 5 core members. (3xhealers, 1xtank, 1xOT (not prot. IMHO)) .. just my thoughts. Not sure if I helped tho

Gathgor · Post by **Gathgor** » August 20th, 2007, 1:57 pm

Rob (Blave), I understand that frustration and to combat that I recruited some guildies for 5 man Monday nights like General Goods (Scott, Mason, Dee, Brian, and Steve) does on Mondays. There has been some various people in the group including Buck (Liberache), Another/Maggotmilk, Sniper, Delv, Xandor, Gathgor/Syrinxiarra, and YOU. Last week, we did our Arena and I would like to get that done again tonight. Then we can run 1-2 5-mans after that. So I will see you tonight and we can start with Arena. I'll probably start with my dailies in Ogri-La. I'll be around this saturday night so maybe we can get another 5 man group for a couple of dungeons then too. Robert (Gath/Syr)

Blave · Post by **Blave** » August 20th, 2007, 2:27 pm

Maybe "disbanding" is a hard way of putting it. I am thinking more like "put on hold", but the effect is the same. We have people in group 2 that, for whatever reason, are struggling getting geared for Kara. My idea is to "pause" group 2 for a couple of week and have a set schedule to help these people get better gear. Yes, I agree they should be running these 5 mans anyway ... maybe they just do not have the time to do both Kara 2 nights a week and grind for gear the rest of the week. And it is unfair to the people that are working hard to make Kara successful, I am one of these people ... but if 7 people have better than average gear, and 3 do not, then everyone gets a repair bill. We as a team lose ... (currently happening).

You are correct in the core group, maybe only 5. Our biggest problem has been tanks and healers ... and it's always raining DPS.

Regarding a point system, it might be premature to start on a 10 man, but then again, it might be good place to start. Kara is a better than average 10 man with better than average loot (not as good as PvP mind you) but starting a point system now would reward those that show on time, prepared, and consistently and start building successful habits for bigger and better things, 25 man, etc. Also, it could be used to balance out a 3rd group when needed ... I do think we will need at least 30 geared people to start a regular 25 man which is, I believe, our main goal as a guild. Other than having fun, and ganking Horde

Fargol · Post by **Fargol** » August 20th, 2007, 3:06 pm

I have to agree with the 'core' group idea - Mahanlor is there to tank everytime, and he's got gear and experience with the fights. What I have seen is a jumble of various healers, of varying talent and comitment. But it's not just about being a good healer or having gear - it's also being dependable, being at every raid, and overall the raid needs to be a TEAM.

It's easier said than done, but until group one really had the always there commitment of tank and healers (and some always dps) we mulled around with the same problems over and over again. That said, there's no reason to just give up - it look us like 2 months to really get kara off the ground full force. Another 2 more to get to the end of the dungeon.

drp · Post by **drp** » August 20th, 2007, 6:14 pm

I think there are some of us who have already put a lot of time into collecting gear and researching the best spec for the raids. would hate to have to go back to having nothing to run again

mahonri · Post by **mahonri** » August 20th, 2007, 11:25 pm

Fargol wroteI have to agree with the 'core' group idea - Mahanlor is there to tank everytime, and he's got gear and experience with the fights. What I have seen is a jumble of various healers, of varying talent and comitment. But it's not just about being a good healer or having gear - it's also being dependable, being at every raid, and overall the raid needs to be a TEAM.It's easier said than done, but until group one really had the always there commitment of tank and healers (and some always dps) we mulled around with the same problems over and over again. That said, there's no reason to just give up - it look us like 2 months to really get kara off the ground full force. Another 2 more to get to the end of the dungeon.

Right... when I first started running with group 1 we were still wiping on the trash before Moroes... 2 months later we are 1 shotting Nightbane... I think that just like group 1 played together, and learned together, group 2 will have it's success as well. It takes time and learning and gearing. Like Chuunks said, I hope the people that want success are running instances the other days of the week for better gear. Oh, a good example is Amulec. He came to the guild hoping to be a MT... He was told that we already had MT's that really loved it and it would be best if he went fury to OT. Amulec spent 4 entire days in instances getting gear. Not just 1 instance a day, more like 5-6... It was nuts. Commitment.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » August 21st, 2007, 5:32 am

Here's something though that I've heard mentioned regarding DKP in 10-man instances - and I think something in it rings painfully true."Friendly" loot with us tends to be people passing to the biggest need in the group. This is thought of for progression sake.In hindsight, I think it's full of crap. In essence, you are rewarding someone for not putting his/her best effort into gearing up. The only reason to pass to someone with a worse item would be if said person had run instance XYZ repeatedly and gotten horrible luck. I remember myself struggling like mad up until our raid day to get my tanking set. That week I got Grom'Tor's charge, my Shatari bracers/belt, that DAY I got Dabri's tanking trinket (curse you SL for denying me that other one for 5-6 runs!). I know Quani switched to tailoring specifically because of the Whitemend/Mooncloth patterns are simply amazing. Amulec has already been cited as an example, but I could probably run through each person participating in Tuesday's group and talk about the amount of effort put into gearing themselves up outside the raid.^--- taking a break to do this would be epic. But again, there are people who already have put that effort in.I dont have a solution .. I just see the problem...

TIggerstYle · Post by **TIggerstYle** » August 21st, 2007, 7:52 am

Chuunks wroteIn hindsight, I think it's full of crap. In essence, you are rewarding someone for not putting his/her best effort into gearing up. The only reason to pass to someone with a worse item would be if said person had run instance XYZ repeatedly and gotten horrible luck.

And what of the people who dont have unlimited time to play this game as some do , what then ? If im on for an hour or so a night, and everytime im on i ask if someone wants to run something and i get 1 or 2 replies only, is that then not my best effort to gear up as you put it. At the moment im trying to gear my pally as i know we are short on healers, but when nobody replies to guild chat it basically leaves me SOL. Ive got 2 hours to play before i need to go to bed, option 1 is ask guildies and hopefully get a group together, option 2 is spend an hour trying to organize a PUG then run whatever instance and wipe and struggle and chew into my desperately needed sleep. Option 2 doesnt work for me, and if option 1 fails then there goes another night when my best efforts to gear via instances goes down the drain. Nobody HAS to pass on anything, but a nice blue piece probably performs better then a weak green piece, and i thought the object was to gear everyone for furthering the guilds progress.

Fargol · Post by **Fargol** » August 21st, 2007, 11:06 am

This is the BC - good loot doesn't only come from instances anymore. Great stuff can be had from 70 quests in shadowmoon/netherstorm. Watch the AH for greens/blues - there's some really good ones. Research / farm / craft or find a guildies to make some of the new craftable gear. PvP for honor point gear and arena point gear. Finish up quests that give faction rep for factions that have rep rewards of your liking.

The rules have changed

People pass on kara loot, because they have something better already from a different source.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » August 21st, 2007, 11:14 am

I'm just pointing out a flaw in the system ... obviously there are exceptions to every rule. However, are you suggesting that people should pass to you because you...'re unable to play as much? We're friends, if I had Drumble there with WW - I would pass to you in a heartbeat because that's not my main - and WW seems to be your raiding main (though now is it shifting to Pally?).No one is saying you shouldn't roll, I just dont think it's wise to pass because someone else didn't put equal work in.But since you offer yourself as an example and talked about furthering the guilds progress, I should point out that levelling 6 different guys to 70 is not as good as sticking with one and gearing up yourself. This again, is my humble opinion. And, as always, there are exceptions to the rule.Perhaps we might move this discussion to the officer forum?

Blave · Post by **Blave** » August 21st, 2007, 11:44 am

A friendly loot system does tend to disproportionately reward those that are not putting in the same effort as the committed regulars ... I see it as a form of leaching off of the Guild, that is one of the reasons I would vote for a DKP system. Is it fair that 5-6 guildies run Kara consistently for months, and the first time an item drops that they needs (because they already have gear from instances/PvP), a first timer get the item (who is wearing crap, and did not contribute much to the fight)? Who learned Kara and taught the others? Who struggled through wipe after wipe after wipe? Who paid 20+ gold repair bills? Being "guilted" into passing on an item just because someone has a green is not fair. And I will go as far to say, rolling randomly for items is not fair.

Now Tiggerstyle, I do not think you would have a problem with a point system ... if you run Kara, or whatever instance we are using a point system on, you would get the same points as everyone else and have the same opportunity for loot as everyone else. Now if you are saying that like the friendly loot system because you are depending on the guild to upgrade your items (via Kara none the less), then I think there is a problem.

Point systems were developed to solve these problems and I think that we should use one.

mahonri · Post by **mahonri** » August 21st, 2007, 12:09 pm

This all needs to be moved to the officer forum. I will start a thread there.

Kaittlynn · Post by **Kaittlynn** » August 21st, 2007, 12:20 pm

Just kinda another look at Grp 2 options. Earlier I had said that Thursdays/Sundays shouldn't be kara runs, they should be instance runs for gear. I now take that back. I don't think it's as much a gear problem now. It's an experience issue. As a group, Goup 2 needs to figure out boss fights and what each individuals role is. Especially on Morose, if anyone is off their part, the whole thing can and will fail. Taking myself as an example-- We almost had him down on our 2nd attempt, however I (Jazzmynn) Used the wrong thing on Thandrenn, I should have done Blessing of Protection, instead I used an hour cooldown that reset the whole fight and took him out of combat. This was my fault, so I helped us lose that fight. I can own up to it, learn from it and change so that I can play my role better next time. Not everyone would have known my bad action there if I hadn't said it, and Raiding is not about pointing fingers. IT is about everyone realizing their part in the group as a whole and learning how to perfect it. It may take us a few shots at the bosses that we 'Just got down' as we do only have 1 chance a week to actually do it. What you can do though, is read up on the bosses and watch the Boss Fights on Youtube.com. Also, I understand that Loot is an issue on everyone's mind. I can't help but notice that it wasn't that big of a issue until recently. The more time you put into preparing for Raid's = the furthur you get each time. That = MORE LOOT!!!!! It's nice when people can pass to other players because they have what they need. I really love gettin good loot, but the nights that I roll Hot! I could potentially get drops from every single boss and be rolling against 4 or 5 others that need the piece too. That is when it's a good time to pass. Roll anyways, see what you get. If you are a hot roller, you hve the discretion to pass it. The main thing to remember is that this is a game and we are all friends here. It is nice to win every roll, but feels even better in the friendship to have the availability to pass to others in the group. Makes for a much happier place-- moreso if the game is played friendly like this, in the past we haven't had to worry about points or passing to those that need it more. We are playing to have fun and all enjoying the drops together. ~Kaitlynn/Jazzmynn~

Blave · Post by **Blave** » August 21st, 2007, 12:36 pm

mahonri wroteThis all needs to be moved to the officer forum. I will start a thread there.

Can I get access to the officer forum please.

thandrenn · Post by **thandrenn** » August 21st, 2007, 9:20 pm

I disagree. I don't think our gear is the problem, so much as our experience. Which, as has been said before, will improve if we keep running. Group 1 was where we are now. We can get better. As for a loot system, forgive me if I misunderstand, but in most cases I've seen - what's the point? Example, if a Tanking helmet drops and one of the Tanks needs it, why should points be involved? I can understand for stuff everyone can use or many people want - but a lot of the stuff I've seen drop so far hasn't had to be contested. I'm still new to this whole raid thing, as well as Offtanking. It's been difficult, but now that we're making some success (we've downed Moroes twice and Opera twice), I'm excited. I'm learning a lot. To just stop now, even temporarily would be disappointing.

drp · Post by **drp** » August 22nd, 2007, 12:43 am

im pretty happy with the way everything has worked out so far, i have been in a few runs now seen a lot of drops i would not have minded having but passed on them just because why does some one need 2 sets of epic gloves? or why would a rogue need a cross bow that is not a lot better then there throwing knive that lets them use deadly throw? so far i have only seen one item i really wanted drop and i got it so i dont have anything to complain about =)

Fargol · Post by **Fargol** » August 22nd, 2007, 1:31 am

Just keep in mind - all this new loot system discussion is for 25 man raids. I'll save futher discussion on that topic for other thread, as to not sidetrack this one anymore.

Kaittlynn · Post by **Kaittlynn** » August 22nd, 2007, 4:29 pm

That makes so much more sense to me now! I was thinking that people were talking about a Loot System for Kara. We are just about through there, so it's not as much an issue. I will wait for that post on the LootSys for 25mans

.Ty for xplaining it