Kara Raiding Group 2

starsaver · Post by **starsaver** » September 21st, 2007, 11:37 am

I'm sure there will be some who don't like this thread or feel I have no business to say anything. Well, I'll live. For the past few weeks we've gotten into a routine. The bad news however is that we're in a routine of not clearing. Week after week it's the same story different group, extra long explanations for the new people, people not having everything they need or just plain not playing their assigned role/class as needed for the progression of the group. We need to finalize the group with people willing/able to give not only 100% of themselves but 110% for the group. No more half assing around with anything. If you want to do that then make a 3rd group and raid whenever the mood strikes. We are obviously not going to clear it in 2 days so a 3rd will be needed and with that the second day needs to be changed. If we expect to get to the larger and more difficult raids as a guild then the members of group 2 need to be atleast on par with group 1. Now being that group 1 is full of people with experience but a different group make up then group 2 we can't always do things the way they do. Which brings us to the next thing, swapping people for other people between the groups. It makes zero sense to switch out people who are not going to put out as much time and effort as the people who are there already have and do everytime. How to determine who swaps out should be based on first willingness and secondly what can be changed "WITHOUT" holding back either group. We don't want to force anything as that will only further reduce the success rate. As I understand it most of FA has been playing together for a long time so there are relationships that have been forged, that's fine but we need to think about where we want to go. Do we want to eventually get the larger raids on "farm" status or are we happy with doing Kara until the next expansion? I personally want to go into the larger instances and get the guild rating up by any means necessary and if that means telling someone who does or gives less than what everyone else does that we'd rather find someone else so be it. I enjoy running Kara with both groups but there is more out there than Kara. That being said if getting as far as shade and taking an ass whooping from illhoof week after week is what group 2 is happy with then maybe Starsaver will try pugging it every other week so that she can attain more progression so when group 1 is moving on to the bigger and better she can be counted in those numbers. Please do not take this post as saying that I think that I'm better than anyone, I am only stating that I put in alot of time learning my place and just believe that others who are going to raid do the same for the betterment of Forged Alliance.... Paul Magner US Army Commanding

Hardwigg · Post by **Hardwigg** » September 21st, 2007, 1:19 pm

Zul'Aman will be another 10-man encounter coming out before the expansion.

starsaver · Post by **starsaver** » September 21st, 2007, 1:38 pm

Hardwigg wroteZul'Aman will be another 10-man encounter coming out before the expansion.

How does that affect Kara raiding group to in the slightest? I'm trying to get them to focus on the matter at hand not give them something else to worry about when we want to do 25 man raids as a guild and there's a huge difference in progression.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » September 21st, 2007, 1:43 pm

Trust me -- I am sympathetic with the motivation, you and I have spoken about the need to get/have at least a consistant "core" makeup to the group. It makes no sense to "relearn" these fights week to week with a different group. I also agree that it would make no sense to swap people who aren't motivated. The converse to that statement holds true -- it makes great sense to bring anyone who has invested the time to at least bone up on the encounters to swap -- then to learn the FA way to handle the encounter. (There is a distinct difference -- know the boss abilities vs. how we deal with them as a group. The difference between a 15 minute explanation and a 2 minute one.)To put all the chips on the table -- "call a duck a duck" as it were, we need to have enough people so that there is a certain threat to losing your raid spot to people more avid and more motivated. You sign up for a raid and flake out without letting someone know -- you're replaced. You don't know and/or aren't prepared for encounters -- you're replaced. As much as this is "just a game" -- it's a team sport and you're leaving the other 9 raid members in a lurch. As long as we're in the situation of taking "whoever", we're going to have this deadly mix of hardcore and casual -- and never the two should raid together. I'd vote that the Raid Leader for the Thurs. group define a group of 8 people who he/she can rely on EVERY SINGLE raid night, this must include the core group of tank & healers -- as brutal as it seems to put it, DPS is easily swapped in/out - and despite certain encounter specifics is really just a flavor to the encounter. (Yes -- it must be high DPS, regardless). These are the people who on that rare occasion, will be responsible enough to proactively say when they wont be able to make it, and possibly suggest a suitable replacement.I think a 3rd raid group to shove casuals -- as brutal as it sounds -- is what is going to cause the Thursday group to start screaming through the instance. At this point, based on the amount of time put into it -- everything up to and including Curator should be a one-shot.Love me - hate me -- just calling it like I see it. I'm not making the critical decisions here.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » September 21st, 2007, 1:48 pm

Hardwigg wroteZul'Aman will be another 10-man encounter coming out before the expansion.

Patch 2.3 ... The way things have gone with patch 2.2 -- this is easily 3 months away.

Hardwigg · Post by **Hardwigg** » September 21st, 2007, 1:54 pm

starsaver wrote Do we want to eventually get the larger raids on "farm" status or are we happy with doing Kara until the next expansion?

I was merely trying to state that there will be additional content for us to explore beyond Kara that is not 25-man content. FA does not seem to be uniformly composed of people who are able to devote the time to clearing 25-man instances week after week, hence Zul'Aman being a good future alternative. But I won't comment on this any further since my input was apparently unwelcome.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » September 21st, 2007, 1:58 pm

Here comes the triple post ... more thoughts ..It is really really hard to do what you have suggested -- that is: form the perfect group, have enough people to swap, keep everyone happy, etc...I *think* that we might be all in agreement. I'm not sure what to do until we have that situation of "more than enough" people so that people can/will/should be replaced by those who are going to put in the 110% necessary. It's not only 110% though -- after you bust your nuts doing as best you can do, you need to do everything you can to push that 110 to 112%.Recruiting seems the logical choice -- but I wouldn't want it to be at the risk of the family atmosphere, nor make my requirements stringent enough to prohibit casual players from joining. Ideally, we would have a "learn to raid", "get inspired to try hard" situation -- maybe this is what Karazhan will evolve into when ZA releases ...

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » September 21st, 2007, 2:01 pm

Hardwigg wrote starsaver wrote Do we want to eventually get the larger raids on "farm" status or are we happy with doing Kara until the next expansion? I was merely trying to state that there will be additional content for us to explore beyond Kara that is not 25-man content. FA does not seem to be uniformly composed of people who are able to devote the time to clearing 25-man instances week after week, hence Zul'Aman being a good future alternative. But I won't comment on this any further since my input was apparently unwelcome.

I think your comments are absolutely welcome -- if I were to hazard a guess, I think the motivation is pushing for 25 man content -- an inclusive raid. Another 10 man raid puts us in another 10 man A vs. B team situation.

starsaver · Post by **starsaver** » September 21st, 2007, 3:31 pm

Yes that's the point I was trying to make exactly. More 10 man content pulls us more apart, where as the "hardcore" group that's out there grinding mats, pugging heroics and trading everything but limbs and children to gear up can do Gruuls with much more confidence than making attempts and even some casuals once we've got the gear/experience to allow chances at better than the casual player can get without pugs. I intended the thread to be a wake up call for the people who are trying hard and not getting in and the people who are getting in and not trying hard enough not to sound like an asshole but seriously if being/sounding like an asshole gives people that inner tick to look at themselves and say, "I WILL GIVE MORE" then I'm all for being that guy. I do apologize for making you think your input wasn't welcome because I want to hear everyone's input good or bad. If your casual be casual and proud but don't hold back the everyone else who knows it's a game and still spends the rediculous hours doing the afore mentioned grinds because they love it and want to be one of the best. I'm sure everyone wants to see FA guild rank improve but who are those that can and are willing to put in the time and effort to make it improve because words alone do nothing... Paul

Dionia · Post by **Dionia** » September 21st, 2007, 6:30 pm

I've said it time and time again, we need to have ONE Kara raid team, work out a roster system for who plays what week, get everyone back to playing together. Do Tuesday/ Wednesday one week Wenesday/Thursday the next week for those people who simply can't raid on Tuesdays, or Thursdays etc. if your name comes up for a raid day you can't make, swap with someone from next weeks group. If you're not scheduled to play Kara that week by all means make a second group and go for it! There should be enough people to "pug" a guild group, and this way those new members who aren't "regulars" with team 1 or 2 could get a spot. I'm sure there are 1 or 2 players who would love the chance to raid Kara regularly, even if it is only once every 3 weeks. This would also ensure a certain "motivation" because if it's your week to raid you damn well better be on time, stocked, repaired, and ready to go at raid time or there WILL be people sitting in the wings waiting to take your place. I haven't even SEEN some of you guys for months now. I miss y'all

starsaver · Post by **starsaver** » September 21st, 2007, 7:32 pm

Dionia wrote I've said it time and time again, we need to have ONE Kara raid team, work out a roster system for who plays what week, get everyone back to playing together. If you're not scheduled to play Kara that week by all means make a second group and go for it! There should be enough people to "pug" a guild group, and this way those new members who aren't "regulars" with team 1 or 2 could get a spot. I'm sure there are 1 or 2 players who would love the chance to raid Kara regularly, even if it is only once every 3 weeks.

This would get us all together again however, with the number of people we have that actually wanna raid there's more than enough people to have to solid groups each running each week so that our Gruul attempts can be alteast mostly guild and hopefully all FA. There's no reason to downsize to only 1 group a week as that will worsen our progress even further mostly from a gear stand point. The real issue is seperating the people who are dedicated enough to commit to atleast 2 days and then have subs for whichever group needs a 3rd day as "clean up" from the people who rarely come and aren't as dedicated as the rest. The hardest part would be the method of determining who's dedicated and who isn't. Those who know they are not could form a seperate group to run together on the weekends or whatever days are good for them, even subbing in on 3rd days as part of clean up teams. The other way is to peer them out. The members of the core group discuss who is giving everything and who isn't working for the greater effort of the group. IMHO we could try the first way to avoid hurt feelings but ultimately I doubt that the "occasional raiders" are going to want to give up their spots so peering them out will most likely be what it comes down to.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » September 21st, 2007, 8:08 pm

I'm fine to raid every other week - or subbing in ... I like Dionia's idea, actually. Maybe we should try to mix it up a little more -- maybe we dont kill Prince for a couple weeks, but it wouldn't take too long for both groups to meet that goal. It really sucks that 3/4 the gear that drops in the Tuesday group typically gets sharded. I'm also willing to keep MTing if that's what's needed while people swap in and out. My big problem is raid time for the Thursday group tends to start and end late for east coasters. That said -- I'm also agreeing with Starsaver in that I want to raid with people who are going to tie their shoes themselves, be reliable/prepared/on time, learn, grow, analyze, improve.

thandrenn · Post by **thandrenn** » September 21st, 2007, 8:25 pm

Simply, I agree. After the struggle that was last night, I'm concerned about our prospects for Sunday. Last night we were struggling to meet the same progress we got to last week.

I'm curious why Thursday and Sunday were chosen as raid nights for group 2 instead of back to back Thursday and Friday? I'd be willing to go a third night, even if it was just every other week so we can make more progress and hopefully clear Kara for once. I understand getting Kara on 'farm' status isn't going to happen fast, especially with our group being different each week (aside from a handful), but at the rate we're going I just don't see us ever clearing it. I'd love to see a core group of people play every week so that we don't need to spend 20 minutes explaining fights that we've already done.

As for starting earlier, I am on the East Coast and I don't leave work most nights until shortly after 7pm server time. By the time I get home and get online it's usually around 7:40ish, so I couldn't start any earlier. And even then we usually don't actually start until 8:20-8:30.

A third group for casuals would be nice. I've got an up and coming Warlock I'd love to start raiding with when possible. Dissolve group 2 and just do one group? No offense, but that idea sucks.

Regards,
Thandrenn, Killer of Stuff

Sniper · Post by **Sniper** » September 21st, 2007, 8:46 pm

Well even if i'm prepared, learned almost all fights (havent done R&J and Wiz of oz), work as team player and do my job good (dps and the ocasionaly traps) apparently i can fit in any groups, so as i mentioned be4 i wont do kara anymore so i wont hear ppl saying that i took their spots or w/e. I did say that i will go to gruul's where almost every1 is needed/wanted, but besides the 1st attempt no1 is planning for it, no scheduling (as our guild raid not mixed up w/ who knows who), so i guess only a few ppl actualy want to progress as a guild towards upper dungeons.

Dionia · Post by **Dionia** » September 21st, 2007, 10:14 pm

Sniper wrote Well even if i'm prepared, learned almost all fights (havent done R&J and Wiz of oz), work as team player and do my job good (dps and the ocasionaly traps) apparently i can fit in any groups, so as i mentioned be4 i wont do kara anymore so i wont hear ppl saying that i took their spots or w/e.

Well see that's the thing, if there was 1 raid group you would be guaranteed a raid spot every 3rd week (we have 3 MAINS that are hunters right?) Surely once every 3 weeks is better than never? And on the off weeks when you're not scheduled to raid the "PUG" guild Kara group would be open for everyone to join.

I did say that i will go to gruul's where almost every1 is needed/wanted, but besides the 1st attempt no1 is planning for it, no scheduling (as our guild raid not mixed up w/ who knows who), so i guess only a few ppl actualy want to progress as a guild towards upper dungeons.

I don't see the point of trying to push on to the next dungeon when we (as a guild) are still stuck on Kara. Sure I'm all for progress, but not at the expense of progress, if we're still progressing in Kara let's keep doing that rather then spend weeks in Gruul's dying repeatedly and getting nowhere. I just don't understand how, if we don't have the gear/ knowledge/ reactions to get Kara down to farm status, we're going to be able to get Gruul's worked out. I know some of you are ready and raring to go, but give the rest of us a chance to catch up. We ARE still progressing. Every time someone gets a piece of loot we progress. It just takes time.

starsaver · Post by **starsaver** » September 21st, 2007, 11:09 pm

So then why not split the 2 cores? Instead of going from 2 to 1, why not take a couple people from each core group and switch them? Doing that helps both groups, group 1 will potentially have less gear to shard and group 2 can grow from the experience and better geared additition. Having 1 group weekly may make it easier but there's ALOT of people so that pugs could just form another group and then back to the same cycle. By going to a 1 group and waiting for you number system gear will be sharded more often because the group make ups could and will vary. This thread wasn't meant to be something used to decide about going to a 1 group system and the true issue is going to be lost. The initial issue is that group 2 wants it's core orgainzed and locked down not to split and take a seat until our number is called. It's not the Walmart customer service area (Slight pun for humor sake) , it's a game that most of us spend a great deal of time investing in and we all want the big returns. Yes, it takes time to get them and we've put that time in but there are people who either cannot or will not put in the same amount. As far as not having what's needed to get Kara down to farm status, group 1 has that, group 2 just wants to catch up. If possible that is what I'd like to keep the focus on please.

Dionia · Post by **Dionia** » September 22nd, 2007, 2:01 am

That has been suggested numerous times before also, it just never happens, personally I can't swap to group 2 because I can't raid Friday nights or Sunday nights.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » September 22nd, 2007, 5:08 am

Honestly this IS what we're doing every week -- every week we swap in a few people from the other group. Mahonri / Kaittlynn / Krikor / Blave / Benvolo / Miramel / etc. ... we keep trying this. But we've been leaving it up to people enthusiastic and proactive about making the switch instead of moving them like pawns.For me -- the raid times are pretty critical. An east coaster myself, starting at even 7 server time is 10pm for me .. regular raids take me to around 1-2am. When we originally set up the two groups, we intentionally made this (early-late) distinction between the two since many of us are family men who need the support of our wives to make it early on a raid night.Personally I'd like to see our group start at 6 server ...